This week's episode of Automation Unplugged features our host Ron Callis interviewing Ryan Lee, Owner of Landscape Lighting Secrets.

About Ryan Lee

Ryan Lee is an experienced landscape lighting designer and business owner with 16 years of experience in the industry. He started and grew a multi-million dollar landscape lighting company (Majestic Outdoor Lighting) in Fort Worth, TX.

In 2019, he sold his lighting business and is now focused full-time on coaching other landscape lighting businesses to help them go from business operator to business owner through his program Landscape Lighting Secrets. He is also the host of the #1 landscape lighting podcast in the world, Lighting For Profits.

Ryan holds a Bachelor degree in Marketing and an MBA from Utah State University. He has personally designed and sold millions of dollars of landscape lighting.

Interview Recap

• SEO Education and Updates
• Starting with Window Cleaning Business
• Learning as a Group and Expert Sessions
• Revenue Growth Scenarios with Lighting Services

SEE ALSO: Show #260 features Kendall Clark

Transcript

Ron:

Hello, hello, Ron Callis here with another episode of Automation Unplugged. And today is Wednesday, March 6th. It is our normal show time, but it's a little bit...little bit of an odd time. Normally we're going to live at 12:30. Today, just to accommodate all parties, my schedule and my guest’s schedule, I'm going live today at 1:00. And, I’ve got an exciting guest for you. So today is show #261. And actually, I'll tell you about my guest. We’ve got Ryan Lee. He is a landscape lighting business coach and trainer. He's with Landscape Lighting Secrets. And I've gotten to know Ryan over the last six months. I actually met him at CEDIA back in September. And we've been talking regularly. And then as recent as last week, we did a panel together out at Lightapalooza. So I wanted to bring him here and introduce him to all of you.

Ron:

But before I do that, I wanted to just share with all of you, as you know, our show here at Automation Unplugged is brought to you by my day job at One Firefly. And at One Firefly, we've had some really big news. And I figured why not just use, you know, I'll take 60 seconds and share that news with all of you. And then you can go and dig deeper if it's appropriate or interesting to you. But let me jump over here. So I'm actually gonna share my screen, and I'm going to share with you the One Firefly website. And it looks like I left my toolbar up there, but this is the press page on the One Firefly site. So you can get there by going to Press and Awards. And if you go there, you'll see that right here, there's actually more in it. We have lots of exciting news lately. But we did release, this is our press release about us launching our Professional SEO services. And we've got a new product page on our website as well. You come over to Websites, and you can go to SEO Optimization, and you can read more all about what we're doing here. But there are some free benefits that we've been producing for anyone that is interested and wants to get some free education on SEO. Under Expertise on our menu, if you go to Five-Minute Marketing Workshops, we have a new marketing video series. We've been doing Five-Minute Marketing videos for years. And our latest series is exclusively on SEO. So we're actually producing 10 videos in total. And at the moment, we've released three of them. These are being released one video a week. These are about five minutes in length. And if you watch the first video here that I'm highlighting, if you're so inclined, we'll give you a QR code in that video and you can get text updates every time we release a new video. But there's a lot of things happening and changing in the world of online search that are absolutely affecting your business. And you might want to be tuned in to what's going on there. And we've produced a whole curriculum offering advice and education to you so that you can keep your business visible in search, given all the things that are happening in the world, and AI and artificial intelligence, and Google algorithm updates, and all that sort of jazz. So it's affecting us all. And we thought it would be fun to produce. I say fun/hard. A lot of fun things are hard to do. And so producing all that content has been a mountain of work for my team and myself, but we do it with all the love in our hearts to try to help you guys and gals stay ahead and keep your businesses at the forefront of online search, and keep your businesses branded and in front of your customers and your future prospects. So that's that. Check that out if you're so inclined.

Ron:

And let's go ahead and jump into the show with my guest. Again, this is Ryan Lee with Landscape Lighting Secrets. And let's bring him in. Ryan, how are you, sir?

Ryan:

What's up, Ron? I'm doing great. Thanks for asking. Thanks for having me, man. I'm excited.

Ron:

Hey, man. I'm excited to have you as well. Where are you coming to us from? Where are you on this planet Earth?

Ryan:

I am in Lehigh, Utah, which is about 30 minutes south of Salt Lake City.

Ron:

30 minutes south. I have some wonderful clients in Salt Lake, Utah. There's a lot of really good people, a lot of good business operators there, at least in the automation space, right there in your backyard. Out of curiosity, I didn't ask you this question in advance, so I'm curious. Have you worked with any integrators in the Salt Lake market?

Ryan:

No, I haven't. In fact, I only have... my marketing strategy is very bizarre. It's been all organic. So I haven't targeted, I haven't done anything that's been super proactive in that regard. And so I only have one client in the entire state of Utah in my entire coaching business. We've got more people in Florida and California and New York and all these other states. So yeah, we haven't even started in Utah yet.

Ron:

That is reminiscent of my business. I started this 16 years ago and originally as an engineering business. And in the beginning, most of my clients were from all over the country and they weren't in my backyard. And yet, I mean, that's changed today. We do a lot of business in Florida. But I remember for our first couple of years, that was true. It's strange how that works out sometimes.

Ryan:

Yeah, but yeah, connect me. Let's go. Let's meet them.

Ron:

Hey, maybe they're tuned in. Maybe they're going to watch this live or on replay or they're going to listen to the show recording. Who knows? Stranger things have happened. So you and I, maybe we could start with: how did you and I meet? Right. So I have you here on the show and we did some stuff last week. We'll talk about that in a minute. But maybe tell the audience how you and I met.

Ryan:

Yeah, so I was, you know, I'm constantly looking at ways to improve myself, my business, my clients' businesses. And I'm very intrigued by other industries outside of the landscape lighting industry, because I look and I see what they're doing. And I'm like, wow, this is massive and way ahead of what we're doing in the landscape lighting industry. And I was doing some research, and really some marketing research on like: who would be like the ideal person to offer landscape lighting to someone? And it really is kind of an easy answer. It comes down to integrators. And I was like, okay, well, who are integrators? Where do they meet up?

Ron:

Where do they congregate?

Ryan:

Yeah. What do they do? Who are these people? And I found out about CEDIA, and I show up at CEDIA, and I was blown away. I'm like, holy freaking cow. An amazing conference. So many people, everyone trying, you know, hungry and thirsty for knowledge and product and services and all these different things. And then I turned the corner and I saw One Firefly. And I'm like, hold on, what's going on here. There's a marketing company that has mastered the game for these integrators to be able to get leads and, you know, help market their business and everything. And I'm like, well, man, I really need a marketing company for the landscape lighting industry. Cause everyone that I've talked to so far is like, ah, you know, there's not a lot of people searching for it and kind of throw their hands up in the air. And I'm like, well, there's probably not a lot of people searching for integrators either. This is like the top 5%, 1% of people. And so that's how we met. I just went up and said: who do I need to talk to? Who's in charge around here?

Ron:

And the rest is history. And I should have done this at the beginning. I'll do it now. Tell the audience, what is Landscape Lighting Secrets? Who do you serve? Who do you work with? And what's your role in that operation? And then we'll take it back into some other paths of conversation.

Ryan:

Okay, cool. So I started Landscape Lighting Secrets - this summer will be four years ago. And I started it because, you know, I previously owned a lighting business. And it was hard. You know, I thought starting a business would be easy. I had a marketing degree, I had an MBA. It's like, how hard can this be? And, you know, it hits you pretty dead in the face. Like, man, this is really hard, because it's not just figuring out how to do landscape lighting. That's kind of the easy part. The hard part was: well, how do you make enough money to hire the next person? And how do you find the right person? And how do you keep the right person? And all these things that come with it. So when I sold my lighting business, I launched Landscape Lighting Secrets to help people make enough money to afford to be able to replace themselves and get freedom from their business instead of being trapped in it.

Ron:

Are you today, are you primarily working with landscape lighting or outdoor lighting companies? Up until the present, is that your core customer?

Ryan:

Yeah. So when we launched it, I mean, it was all about business. We didn't even teach landscape lighting because I just assumed that these were people that already had the experience. They were several years in the business and they were frustrated and stuck. And that worked great. But I started having people reach out from other industries. And these were people who had experience with maybe Christmas lighting. These were electricians. These were landscapers. These were people that are like, man, I have people asking me about this. Can I add this on? Can I bolt this on to my existing business? And so we kind of had to go back and build some additional modules to give people the lighting fundamentals. How do you get started? How do you design? How do you install? What lights do you use? Where do you put them? So yeah, now it's a little bit of a hybrid where we have existing lighting companies who already know the game. And then we have brand new people that need kind of everything.

Ron:

Okay. And are you working with, what's your reach? Are you working with companies that are regionally close to you, national? What's the general location or breadth of your reach of service?

Ryan:

I mean, we go all over. We like to say we're international because we have some clients in Canada.

Ron:

I'm not sure that counts. And I love my Canadian clients, but they're kind of the same.

Ryan:

Don't say they're the same. They're unique. They're different. So, yeah, we've got, you know, we've got clients all over the U.S. And like I said, my strategy has not been very strategic so far. I have a podcast. I do a bunch of Facebook Lives. I just do a bunch of organic content. And then it's the people who are reaching out to me. And naturally, for whatever reason, I mean, I would say it's about 80% of our clientele are Midwest and East. And I don't really know why, because, you know, manufacturers tell me that California is lone of the largest markets, and we only have a handful of clients in California. So it just seems that for whatever reason, there's a lot of demand, a lot of interest, from the people kind of Midwest and the East coast.

Ron:

Got it. Well, let's go back in time. Tell us your story. How did you, where'd you start, and what landed you here coaching businesses?

Ryan:

I know, I'll try to be brief. Cause we could go way back in time, right?

Ron:

We can make the whole show about your story, man. We're here for you.

Ryan:

Yeah. Well, you know, just to hit on a little bit growing up, I was raised by a single mother and didn't have my dad in my life. So that, that was just an element that you don't know is an element, you know, it was just normal life. And I, for whatever reason, I always wanted to make money. And so in Utah, there's snow. So I would literally knock on doors, and I would say: Hey, can I shovel your driveway? Can I shovel your porch? And it was awesome if I could make $100 on a Saturday as a kid. That was amazing. And that felt good. And I would go to garage sales. And one time I bought a desk. I don't know why. My mom's like, you want to buy a desk?

Ron:

That is an odd purchase for a kid at a garage sale. I could see some used GI Joes or something like that.

Ryan:

I'm weird. Yeah. So I think, yeah, the key to success is you have to be weird. So you buy a desk from a garage sale. And then it just sat in my room. It's not like I did work on it. So that kind of got me going with the entrepreneurial game. I had a job when I was 15 years old, cleaning the elementary school. I always liked working. I always liked making money. And then what really got me into entrepreneurship was we were getting married, and we had no money. And I literally thought I invented the window cleaning industry. Okay. And here's what I mean by that. I was like, you know, I'd heard of people cleaning windows or whatever, but I thought, you know, at the gas station where you got the squeegee with the scrubber on the other side? I was like, where do you buy those? Because we'll buy those and we'll go knock on doors and just clean people's windows at their houses. And I thought that's what you did. So this was before the internet. This was….what year was this? 2001. I mean, I guess the internet was around, but I didn't know how to use it.

Ron:

Right, right, right.

Ryan:

And so phone book or, you know, open that up. I go to the cleaning store down on State Street. And I'm like, do you guys have like those, the squeegees with the scrubber on the backside? And they're like, no, we don't have that. But we have a whole aisle for window cleaning. And there's this aisle, and there's holsters and scrapers and different size squeegees. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. So I thought I was inventing something, but it already existed. And we literally bought like, $500 worth of equipment, went and knocked on doors, made enough money that summer. My wife and I just did this together. Made enough money to get married and, you know, buy a cheap car and stuff like this. And it felt awesome. It was so cool. People loved us. They almost wanted to just give us money because we were hustlers, you know?

Ron:

Did you give the business a name or was it just you and your wife? Did it have a brand or some identity in some way?

Ryan:

Yeah, and we probably shouldn't say this because it's being recorded, but I don't even remember the name. We didn't file it. This was not a business. I thought I started a business.

Ron:

IRS, delete. Do not listen to this.

Ryan:

Yeah. I've overpaid taxes somewhere else, I promise. So I don't even remember. I know we had a name because we printed out flyers and stuff, but that's a good question. I need to go find an old flyer, or maybe my mom's listening and she'll tell me because I lived in her basement at the time.

Ron:

Nice.

Ryan:

But that was cool. I had this experience of feeling like I started a business even though I didn't. And then I was like, well, no one was teaching me how to be a business owner. So I was like, well, I'm going to be the first person in my family to go to school and get a degree. That was pretty important to me. So I did that. I went to school and I worked for seven dollars an hour at the computer lab. And I kept thinking, man, I should clean windows. I should start that business. But again, I didn't really know how. Fast forward to graduation. And actually, I kept going. I went and got my MBA, but during that time, my brother had moved to Texas and he was kind of figuring out his life and everything. I said, why don't you start a window cleaning company down there? The houses are bigger. People are richer. Like, you know, if you don't like it, you get your money back in a day type thing. And so he had started cleaning windows. So in the back of my mind, as I'm going through school and projects, I'm always thinking, okay, how are we going to blow up this window cleaning business? Well, I convinced my wife to move down to Texas, and literally we were down there on a trip and we bought a house. Okay. We bought the house. We're in my brother's hot tub and we're talking about, you know, how we're going to do things and everything. He goes, Oh, I should tell you. He had told me he did Christmas lights, but I didn't even know what that meant. He goes, I also did these two landscape lighting jobs and they were $4,000 each. I said, someone paid you $4,000 to put lighting on their house? That blew my mind. I could not... what idiot would pay $4,000 for lights on their house, was what I said. He's like, apparently those are small jobs. I don't know. I was like, dude, if what you're telling me is the truth, I'd much rather sell a $4,000 lighting job than a $250 window cleaning job any day of the week. We're doing lighting. We literally...changed everything in that hot tub, changed our business model. So that's how I got into the lighting industry.

Ron:

Holy cow. So, all right. So at that point, were you now in business with your brother and was it a window cleaning slash landscape lighting business?

Ryan:

So at this point we were smart enough to know that we have to make a name and pay taxes and all this stuff. Right. So we formed a new company separate from the window cleaning one. And it was Majestic Outdoor Lighting. So we started an outdoor lighting business that focuses on outdoor lighting. However, like our competitors got wind that he owned a window cleaning company. So when I would meet with people, sometimes they'd say, are you the guys that are window cleaners that do lighting on the side? You know, they would try to set us up as like, oh, it's just a side business or whatever.

Ron:

They would diminish you because of that.

Ryan:

Yeah, they would try that. So, but no, we were all in, you know, it was a legit business. I'm definitely more of the business type guy, sales guy. He's more of MacGyver and street smart operations, can just get anything done, figure it out. So it was a pretty good match to be able to do this because I'm not technical like that. I can't figure out how to install lights on a peak and hide the wire. That's easy for him, hard for me. It's easy for me to figure out the pricing, the marketing, the sales and all that.

Ron:

Got it. So the name of that business was? In Fort Worth?

Ryan:

Yep. Majestic Outdoor Lighting.

Ron:

Majestic. And now you ultimately sold that business. Is that correct? You sold that business back to the brother and you moved on to leading, ultimately to the coaching business. Walk us through that.

Ryan:

Yeah. So, it was a 12-year journey. For the first couple of years, I remember thinking, this is awesome. This is so cool. We get to do this. This is the American Dream. My wife probably didn't think it was so cool because I was out working late, tweaking website stuff until 2 a.m., and then you got appointments and all this other stuff. My wife and I decided, let's do a two-year commitment. And two years, I figured, was enough to figure out if we like Texas and if the business is going to work. Because, you know, you don't want to do too short a time because, you know, you can always recover or maybe you change your mind on things. So after two years, we're like, what do you think? You know, should we stay? Should we do this? We're like, yeah, Texas is awesome and business is going well. And I was still kind of in a honeymoon phase with the business, you know.And it was like, this is awesome.

Ron:

Sure. I love working 80 hours a week.

Ryan:

Yeah. And at about year three to four, I started going, I don't know if this is as awesome as I thought it was, you know? And I started now fantasizing about the job I had previously. And I was like, man, I was making pretty good money and I was home at five every day. I wonder if I should just go get a job, because it was hard. And again, I didn't have a coach. I didn't have Landscape Lighting Secrets. I didn't have a podcast to listen to. If there was that stuff, I was too arrogant and too stubborn to go to conferences. That just wasn't me, right? I thought I could do everything on my own. So I had a few years of stubbornness, I would call it, and also just grit, I don't care. And by the way, during this time, we were growing. I mean, every year, we were making more and more money. We grew up with a single mother. It's not that we didn't have money. We weren't living on the streets. She did well for herself, but we didn't have extra money. We didn't go out to eat every night and anything like that. And so now you get us some success. You get us some money. My brother's buying the boats and buying all this nice stuff. He's living it up and I'm not like that. I'm super conservative, save and let's reinvest, and all this stuff. And I start really realizing that I don't know what I'm doing. Like this is not the definition of an entrepreneur. I read the book E-Myth.

Ron:

Sure, Michael Gerber.

Ryan:

Yeah, it talks about, well, yeah, like entrepreneurs don't start businesses because they're entrepreneurs. People start businesses because they're good at something and they're a good technician and they're a good manager. They're good, whatever. And I'm like, oh, wow. It really opened up my eyes that I'm an entrepreneur. I'm not a good manager. I'm not a good technician. And we started kind of figuring out the business side of it at that point, and putting people in the right place and assigning duties and building systems and things like that. And I started finding my successful clients. I mean, these are people that are successful. They own their own business. They're top CEOs or whatever. And I would ask them, and they became my mentors. And they said, well, have you thought about this? And I'm like, no, that's so obvious. Why didn't I? And so then there was this phase of working on the business and hiring salespeople and building teams and having an office staff. And then it started to become fun again. Then it was like, well, this is cool. I have my time back.

Ron:

And your sanity, maybe.

Ryan:

Yeah. Oh my gosh. It was so liberating because we, I mean, my wife and I went through some problems with our marriage. Like we went to counseling.

Ron:

Your wife may have gained her husband back through that.

Ryan:

Oh yeah. And honestly, it was a lot of her saying, what are you doing? When she's like, when are we going back to Utah? And I'm like, Utah, I thought we gave up on that years ago. And she's like, no. That would be the plan. Let's get back. And I'm like, we can't move to Utah. Have you not noticed? I work a hundred hour weeks.

Ron:

Yeah. I can relate so much to what you're saying. I'm 16 years in, this is my 17th year in entrepreneurship. And for me, it sounds like you figured it out quicker maybe, but it took me about eight years to figure out that there's a lot of people out there ready to help you if you're ready to receive that help. And you got to be of the mindset, you know, stop that stubbornness, pocket the ego and really open yourself up to being advised and coached and counseled by others. And, I just identified for myself, I started to get better at listening to my wife, listening to my customers about what they really wanted and needed. And then I was able to make those bigger changes. So I'm right there in line with you. And then as you can grow and mature and bring good people on and delegate and put systems and processes in place, you now are growing more of what I'd call a real business. Otherwise, you're working a lot of hours and you have a really hard job and you work for a crazy person, yourself.

Ryan:

Which is the worst boss ever.

Ron:

Which is the worst boss ever. So what happened next?

Ryan:

Yeah, and maybe I was wrong on my time because I feel like it took eight years for me to get to that point.

Ron:

Okay, so I'm not alone.

Ryan:

It was probably two plus five plus two or something like that, yeah. Yeah, I'm a slow learner.

Ron:

I have been known to be considered hardheaded. But when I do learn and I go down a different path, I can also change, as anyone listening can change and grow and mature.

Ryan:

Yeah. And so it was through mentors. It was through books. I still wasn't part of communities. I still was probably too stubborn to do that. But I had this realization that another book that I really like is Traction. And that book talks about how you have a visionary and then you have an integrator and just really kind of how to set your business up for success, like the blueprint.

Ron:

There we go.

Ryan:

Oh, I love that book. But in that book, it even says it warns you that this portion of the book is probably going to break up partnerships. It's probably going to break up relationships. You're probably gonna have to let people go that have been with you for years. And all this stuff. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. You're like, as you're reading it, you're feeling it. And you're like, oh, my gosh. And my brother and I were trying to be two visionaries, trying to take the company different ways. He wanted to go left to the lake. I wanted to go right to build the empire. And we were left going down the middle. And no one's really happy at that point. So it's not fair to him or me at that point to continue down that path. And so it's like, all right, let's make a decision. Who's the visionary? Who's really in charge here?

Ron:

And for those listening that, you know, aren't familiar with the term visionary, that's a term from the book Traction. So within the traction system, there's a visionary that's looking out, looking over the horizon and designing the future. And then there's the integrator, which is - pardon the pun. A lot of the folks listening or watching are integrators. But in traction terminology, the integrator is, you could think of it as the senior ops person, the person that's really implementing. And a business will struggle, theoretically will struggle or achieve less or won't go as fast or won't go as far, if you have two visionaries or two integrators. There's another book by Gina Wickman called, what is it? Rocket Fuel?

Ryan:

Yeah.

Ron:

Which is when you put the integrator and the visionary together, that's how you make rocket fuel. What is rocket fuel? It's hydrogen and oxygen. And when you put those together and you ignite it, the rocket can take off.

Ryan:

And the key is like every business owner goes through this. You're always going to have multiple hats. Like your name can be in a lot of different boxes and it's going to be true for anyone who's starting up a business. And then the goal is to reduce those over time, obviously. But the catch is you can't have two names in one box. Like that's a recipe for disaster. You know, and there's so much clarity that comes with that, because whether it's an office manager, whether it's a salesperson, a technician, you'll find that if you go through that exercise, you'll give all your people clarity. And so they're not going, well, I thought you were going to do that. No, I thought that was your job. It's like, no, this is your box. Like, this is everything that's here. And it makes it very clear and simple for everyone to understand.

Ron:

Yeah, the language of accountabilities. When that's crystal clear, and how things are going to be measured, things get so much easier.

Ryan:

Yeah, 100%.

Ron:

And so much better for everyone. Everyone's so much happier when they understand. Most team members, myself included, it feels good to know what's expected of you.

Ryan:

And we all need boundaries. You know, we need to know that. And it makes it nice. And so going through that exercise was helpful. But then all of a sudden it was like, oh, my gosh, what does this mean? You know, who's going to do what? And there's a lot of information that goes into that. But it's like, OK, who's going to be the visionary? And so ultimately, you know, through a series of conversations and experiences, it was like, you know what? I think it makes sense for my brother to buy me out. And a lot of people come up to me and they're like, man, I want to do what you did. You sold your business. And I'm like, do you really want to sell your business? You know, and I think that should be everyone's goal, is get your business to be sellable. But I would say this, if it's just a single location business doing less than a million dollars a year EBITDA, I don't know that your business is as valuable as you think. So maybe you should build it like you're going to sell it and then keep it. And just enjoy the, I mean, you spent all this grit building it. Why not enjoy the fruits of it?

Ron:

My philosophy, and this is just, I read this somewhere, so I can't take credit for it, but it is what I believe and it's what I practice. I build a business. I'm building a business in One Firefly that would be highly attractive if someone were to buy the business. And it would be highly attractive for me to keep the business. It'd be a business. It is a business that I love. I love what we do. I love what we stand for. I love our growth. I love our profitability. It's a great business. And so then you have this wonderful leverage when you're designing your future. You can keep the business that you love and you operate, or you could sell the business and it would be highly desirable. And like who would want to grow a business that would be undesirable for someone else to purchase?

Ryan:

Right.

Ron:

Like, well, you're the person that owns that undesirable business. Wouldn't you want that business to be desirable? It's just, I don't know. I think it's a healthy way to think about your business and to challenge yourself to make it a good business.

Ryan:

I feel like no matter what stage someone's at, if you could say five years from now, my business is going to be sellable, you know, and attractive. Someone would be like, heck yeah, I want that business. And if you set that as your goal, then you can start to reverse engineer the plan. If my business were to be attractive, to be sellable in five years, what would have to be true? Well, I can't be doing everything, you know. And you can just start putting all the pieces into place and say, well, I'd have to be doing this, this person, we'd have to hire two more people for this. And it really helps you, you know, implement your vision.

Ron:

Yeah, I agree. How did you transition from that? So it sounds like you made the deal with your brother and he purchased back your shares. What led you, ultimately, to decide to get into the coaching business and helping others?

Ryan:

Yeah, that's a little bit of a story, too, because a lot of people just assumed, well, you sold your lighting business. Now you're just going to start another one. And I was like, well, I don't know. Obviously, that crossed my mind. Cause that's the last 12 years of my life. I know how to do it, right? But I was also going from Texas to Utah, where I don't have the resources, the contacts. It's a different environment. And also I was like, do I really want to start a business from the ground up again? I know what I had to go through to do that. You know, I looked at like, should I buy a business? Should I partner with someone? It's kind of a weird position to be in. It's not that I had, you know, retirement money and could do whatever I wanted, but there was a reset where I was like, okay, you get to do what you want with your life. And I had done a lot of the digital marketing for my own company, and I had a lot of friends that own their own businesses. They were reaching out to me saying, hey, could you help me with my Facebook ads? Could you help me get reviews? Could you help me with my website? And I was like, yeah. And I just kind of….I didn't even mean to create this business, but I started a digital marketing agency. And I found out really quickly, like within six months, that I loved selling, talking to the business owners, and like, it's what we're doing now. And then it was like, wait, I have to do fulfillment? This is terrible. And I had a friend who owned a pest control business. I was doing his Facebook ads and we were getting great results. But he calls me one month. He's like, man, we only got 30 leads. And I'm like, you only got 30 leads? He's like, yeah, because last month we got 60. And I'm like, do you hear yourself right now? I know that last week or last month we did 60, but you still got 30, right? And I was getting so annoyed. I was like, this is not what I want to do with my life. And all of a sudden, I was at, what's it called? Funnel Hacking Live, a digital marketing event. And I see all these people up there talking about their experience, and how they have courses on how to do Facebook ads or courses on how to raise goats, like weird, weird stuff, you know? And I was like, some of these people you could tell were legit and others, I was like, they don't even know what they're talking about. And I started thinking, and they kind of asked the question, what are you good at? What are you passionate about? What are you knowledgeable about? And I'm like, well, I'm passionate about lighting. I love lighting. That's my life. And it was like, well, why aren't you doing that? And I'm like, why am I not doing that? And so I started thinking, I wonder if I could be an educator. I wonder if I could be a coach for the landscape lighting industry. And literally, it was two weeks after that, COVID happened. And the world shut down. Half my clients from digital marketing just fired me. They didn't really fire me, but they're like, let's pause. We don't know what we want to do. We don't know what's going to happen. Let's just pause. And I was like, yes, let's pause. I wanted to fire you anyway. You guys were pissing me off.

Ron:

Right. How did you really feel Ryan?

Ryan:

I don't know. If they don't know, they know now if they're watching this.

Ron:

They know now.

Ryan:

It was annoying. I just didn't like it at all, you know?

Ron:

Yeah.

Ryan:

And so I just told everyone, you know what? That's fine because we're shutting this down anyway, and I'm going in to do landscape lighting coaching. And that was crazy because I thought, Ron, I was like, there's probably only two people out there in the world that will actually accept the help and admit that they have an issue, that they have a problem because that was kind of my mindset growing up, I'm that stubborn guy. It was hard for me to admit I need help. And then, and then what am I going to do? I'm going to help the two landscape lighting companies out there that want help. And then what? But I didn't care. I feel this internal calling. I feel the passion. I feel the commitment. And so I just committed. And launched Landscape Lighting Secrets. We didn't even have a name. Okay. We didn't have a logo. I got four people to commit to a program that didn't exist just based on me challenging them and saying, let's do this. And the only reason that worked was because I hired a coach. And this was, this was like my first time hiring a coach and they gave me the blueprint. They said, well, this is how you do it. And you reach out to people like this, and offer them this crazy discount because they're your founding members. Right. And no one's ever going to get this value and tell them, be honest, that it doesn't exist yet, but they're going to help you build this awesome thing. And that to me, it was awesome because I was like, here I am becoming a coach, but I'm learning the value of a coach because I went from zero to hero really fast because of my coach.

Ron:

Tell me about the business today. What does it look like? How many businesses do you work with and what's the breadth of offering that you offer today?

Ryan:

Oh, it's so amazing. And what's cool is it's completely different. You know, when I first launched it, it looked one way. And then because my clients helped me mold it, they asked me for things, that's fine, we add it, you know. And so now it's really cool. We have several different ways to learn and get information and build your business. So the first thing is a content portal. And in the content portal, you log in, you have access to video training.

Ron:

I'm going to share your website, by the way. So for those that are listening, if you watch us, or find us on LinkedIn or Facebook or YouTube, you'll see the video. Or you can visit us on our One Firefly website and you can find the Automation Unplugged page there as well. The show with Ryan.

Ryan:

Okay, cool.

Ron:

But go ahead. I'm just sharing the website. I'll click around as you're talking.

Ryan:

Yeah, no worries. And they you know, they're not going to see the content portal here. But in the members only content portal, we teach how to do landscape lighting, how to design, how to install. And what's cool about this is it’s not just for the owner. As you hire and onboard new team members, you can send your team through the training. So you now have your own training platform without having to build it. And then we get into the pricing, the sales, the marketing, which is where I see most business owners struggling. They don't truly know how to build a business. And so we give them the content portal. They learn on their own. And then we found that people need to learn as a group and not necessarily just one on one, but as a group. So we have smaller circles of leadership. Well, they'll meet with five to 10 other business owners and in non-competing areas. And they'll talk about their challenges, their opportunities, their successes, and things they are going to hold themselves accountable for. And these are these are led by our coaches. And then there is a one on one element where you meet with your accountability coach, and you go over your numbers, and you go over where you want to be and why you're not there and things like that. So lots of different ways to learn. We have monthly training sessions where we'll have different experts come on. We had someone come in and teach us - this is a guy who runs a one hundred million dollar HVAC company. He's the CEO of it. He came in and taught us how to offer financing to our clients. And what's so cool about that is I never did that. I don't know how to do that. I'm not the expert, but this guy is, right? And so we partner with other experts to come teach members of our community to help them grow their business. And you're not just relying on the one path in life that I had.

Ron:

No, that is amazing. So last week, Ryan, you and I….I'm actually going to share some pictures, some other pictures now, here on the screen for those that want to watch it. You joined me, and I appreciate you politely accepting my request to join me for a panel discussion at Lightapalooza with some additional esteemed landscape lighting experts. We had, who is it, Chris Apfelstadt?

Ryan:

Nice.

Ron:

How did I do on the name?

Ryan:

Yeah, that sounds good.

Ron:

He'd be proud of me. He's out of Columbus.

Ryan:

He'd be happy.

Ron:

He would be happy. I only mildly butchered his last name from the stage. But sorry, Chris, if you're going to listen to this. And Chris is out of Columbus, Ohio. And then we had Ryan Williams with FX Luminaires. And he was our manufacturer sponsor. FX Luminaire. There's no S on the end of Luminaire. And we had a fun time talking to, I would say a pretty packed room, man. There were a lot of people in the room there in Phoenix and there's the four of us. What did you think about that experience of just being on that panel? And you were in front of a room full of integrators. And, I mean, these were the CEDIA people that you were getting introduced to last September. What was that like for you?

Ryan:

It was awesome. I mean, I appreciated the invite from you of course, so thank you for that. And it's just so cool to see this industry that is thriving, and these people are so hungry. You know, Lightapalooza was awesome because there's all the different classes. Obviously I'm pretty proud of what we did, right, but there were other amazing classes going on as well. And to see these people that are there to learn, to get better, they've already checked their ego and all that stuff. So it was really, really cool. And that was my first time really getting in front of a group of integrators like that. So it was a great experience.

Ron:

I appreciate that. There's Steve Burke from Texadia out of Dallas. He was hanging out with us there at our One Firefly booth. And there's Kendall, our Director of Sales and Marketing. It was a good event, for sure. What's your opinion, Ryan? Why should integrators look at getting into the landscape lighting business? What's the opportunity?

Ryan:

Well, I mean, that's why I love CEDIA. That's why I love Lightapalooza. I'm sitting here thinking, okay, who has the best opportunity? You know, marketing is all about marketing the right product to the right person. You know, like don't try to sell a Ferrari to someone who's looking for a Toyota Camry. It doesn't matter how good your marketing is, it’s just not going to work.

Ron:

It's not going to go well.

Ryan:

So I look at landscape lighting as like, you know what, it's pretty high end stuff. I mean, unless you're getting solar lights from the big box store or something like that, but that's not what we do. I mean, a professionally designed and installed lighting system starts at 5 to 10 grand, you know. Like that's the starting price and it goes up from there. And when we got the jobs that we did that were referred by integrators, there's no coincidence, they were always our highest total contract value jobs. And so that's why I was like, well, wait a minute. I'm trying to help myself. I'm trying to help my clients. I'm trying to help the lighting industry. And I'm thinking, how do we do that? How do we grow this? And the integrators really control what happens. They are in front of the target market. All these people, if you're an integrator, you're sitting on a gold mine of opportunity. And that's why I'm excited to be in this industry. They're really at the pinnacle of wealth. Poor people don't hire integrators.

Ron:

I agree with that. And a lot of wealthy people don't either. That's why there's still so much opportunity for us to be better as an industry, to get in front of those people that maybe don't even know they need us. I'm going to run an example. Let's say an integrator is $5 million in revenue today and they're not in the landscape or outdoor lighting business. And so I'll just run, let's say their average project is $100,000. So that is based on that math, Ron, you can do this. So that's 10 projects per million. And so that'd be 50 projects a year.

Ryan:

50 clients a year, yeah.

Ron:

50 clients a year. If they got good, I'm not going to say they're beginners, but they have a good rate of bringing this category up to their customer and making some sales. What do you think they could add in terms of top line? And keep in mind for everyone listening in, you notice I'm not saying you're going and getting new customers. That's additional opportunity. Just going to your existing book of customers and selling them more. What do you think is possible?

Ryan:

Well, that's what's sexy about it is you don't have to go try to get new clients. You already have the client who likes you and trusts you. All you're going to do is send them a text or an email or a phone call. Here's the thing. Whether you do the lighting or not, they're going to get lighting. It's not a matter of if, but when. It's just, is the quality of the lighting going to be there? Are they going to do it themselves? Are they going to hire an electrician who usually does really crappy work outside? Are they going to hire a handyman? Are they going to hire the landscaper? Are they going to call a professional lighting company? They're going to do it, so why not take advantage of that opportunity? Even if you set the money aside, the money that you'll make from it, you're also adding to your relationship. You're adding value to that relationship. If they say, hey, do you do lighting? And you say, no, that's not very valuable. You know, at least say I don't, but I know somebody and connect them with someone.

Ron:

Right. Run the thought experiment though, with me, on that 50 projects a year, $5 million today, top line revenue, no lighting, no outdoor lighting. Obviously if I get into outdoor lighting, I'm going to be selling hardware fixtures and I'm going to be selling labor. I might be putting them on a landscape lighting maintenance plan. So there might be a recurring revenue opportunity to get back in front of them consistently to service that gear. What is like a low range if they're underselling. They're selling, but they're underselling. And then if they're really maximizing the opportunity, what's possible from your point of view?

Ryan:

Yeah. So let's do the conservative one first. So conservative, if you're doing a hundred thousand dollar project, then you're going to at least sell them a $10,000 lighting package today. And that might be just the front yard. If they take the whole project, maybe it's $20K front and back, or maybe it's $50K, whatever, but conservatively, let's just say you're going to sell them one $10,000 project. And how many clients would we say, they could get 20% of their client list out of the gate?

Ron:

Yeah. Alright. So, 0.2 times 50. So that's 10 clients. That's a hundred grand top line revenue.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Ron:

In that scenario, conservative, 20% sell through rate at $10,000 apiece. That's a hundred thousand dollars added to the business.

Ryan:

Super conservative because they don't know what they're doing yet in terms of design. They're just kind of doing the basic design. The same project, that same $10,000 project in the front yard could easily be $20,000 when you get some more experience with design and we help you with your sales. Because you're just more confident. And probably the same is true when you have your integrating business. You start out with small projects and you don't know that you can sell more controls or more lighting, or different things, or more shades, whatever it is. So we can help you increase that average ticket by not only selling additional areas, but adding to that first zone in itself.

Ron:

Okay, so what's the high end? If 20% sell through, $10,000 apiece is the low end, the high end would be, 50% sell-through, is that too high?

Ryan:

I don't think so at all.

Ron:

I don't think that sounds crazy.

Ryan:

I don't think so at all because some people will make the excuse, well, they already have lighting. Well, that doesn't mean anything. Just because they have lighting doesn't mean it's good lighting, doesn't mean they're happy with it. Did they buy the house and it was existing and half of it doesn't work? There's a lot of opportunity out there. So let's say 50%. And then I would say you could make that average ticket go up to 50 grand for sure.

Ron:

Easy, right?

Ryan:

I said 10 grand, let's just say 50 grand. And this is with your scenario with their average job being $100,000. I mean, there's lighting projects out there that go for half a million dollars. But I don't want to throw that out there.

Ron:

I don't think $50K is wild. Well, just at a 50% sell-through at $50K per, that adds $1,250,000 top line of revenue. So that business, just in that scenario, that $5 million business grows 20% just by adding the category of landscape lighting to the mix.

Ryan:

And it's highly profitable because you're not adding, I mean, in some cases you might add team members, maybe a couple technicians, but you're not adding office staff. You're not adding to a lot of the overhead that's already absorbed with your existing business.

Ron:

That's a great point. So, I mean, maybe you're adding, I mean, let's go super heavy, a couple hundred thousand in overhead. And that looks like that's probably a very profitable $1.25 million.

Ryan:

They honestly could make like 40%, 50% on that for sure.

Ron:

Easy, yeah, that's compelling. How do you recommend, Ryan, folks that are tuned in that aren't currently in that category, how do they get in? And so I'm gonna put it out there, maybe talking to you as an option, but like, what's the rate, what's the spectrum of options? How do they figure this out? Like, what are their next moves?

Ryan:

So I gotta be selfish a little bit because that's why I started this business. There's not a lot of options out there. But historically, they'll go join a Facebook group. And then they start asking questions. What products do you use? Where do you buy from? Then they find out about some manufacturers. We had FX there. FX does training. They have an online university. They have in-person training and stuff like that. But also I've found that a lot of people don't like the training from the manufacturers because, and I don't know, I think they're great actually, but they're like, yeah, of course they're telling me that because they want me to buy more products. And I'm like, yeah, but that's okay. Like, of course they want you to buy more products because that means you're more successful and everything else. But they feel like there's a different agenda to it. When I come in with my training, it's completely independent. I'm just trying to help them grow their business. I don't really care what manufacturer they use. I just want to help them learn the right techniques, the right systems, the right processes to be able to be successful in their business. So with my thing, I kind of have my little value ladder. My thing is, dude, if you start listening to my podcast, my whole goal in life is to not charge anyone for anything. And what I mean by that is, yes, one day I will come asking for money. But it should come out of the portion of your wallet that was generated by something I helped you get for free. So it's like Vegas money.

Ron:

It's house money.

Ryan:

Yeah, it's house money.

Ron:

That's how I buy my Bitcoin. I do credit card rewards and I take my cash reward and I'm playing with house money. It's all good.

Ryan:

So that's my strategy. I don't want to ask you for anything. I don't want you to be like, I can't afford it. Because if you're saying that, then go listen to another episode of the podcast and make more money and then give me some of it. I don't even need all of it. So my podcast is great because we have guests just like this and tons of value comes out of it. And people have told me they've joined my program. They're like, dude, I feel guilty for not joining your program because you've literally already helped me so much. I imagine if I got that much value for free, what will happen when I actually pay for it, right?

Ron:

No, that's brilliant. Well, let's use the opportunity now to tell everyone: what is that podcast and how do they find it?

Ryan:

So Lighting for Profits is the name of it. Lightingforprofits.com, it will take you to a page where you can select if you listen on Apple or Spotify, whatever platform you listen to or on. You can find it on YouTube and my Facebook and stuff like that. And again, that's free. There's no reason not to take advantage of that. Then we have some other opportunities. Like we have an event coming up next month in San Diego. It's Landscape Lighting Live, it's like a two day bootcamp. So it's perfect for people who are wanting to jumpstart into the industry. We spend the whole first day talking about design and install and making sure they have the fundamentals down. And then the next day is all about pricing, sales, marketing, like: how do you get your first clients and what do you say to them and how do you do the approach and how much you charge and all that stuff. So we have clients that come to that and literally the next week, they're already selling their first job and with no experience. They've never installed a light before.

Ron:

This is a stage here. What is the cost for that? What needs to happen for someone to learn more about attending that live event?

Ryan:

Well, the website is landscapelightinglive.com. So landscapelightinglive.com. And it has a lot of information on there. You can buy a ticket or multiple tickets. In the last few events, we've had people bringing their team. So if they have their key employee or a key installer or key salesperson, we had several groups that had three or four people there from their team, which was awesome. Tickets are $17.97 per person. You have to buy your hotel and flight, or if you drive or whatever, but we do include all your meals because it's pretty intense. We're all together the whole two days. We stay out super late the first night because we're playing around with lights and showing them the effect and everything. It's an awesome event that's coming up next month. Landscapelightinglive.com.

Ron:

That sounds amazing. Maybe we'll close out, Ryan. What is the scenario that you advise or you have practiced yourself regarding the way that integrators potentially could collaborate with landscape lighting professionals? So we've talked up until now about integrators learning the art and the business of landscape lighting. But there's also scenarios where an integrator could collaborate with a local expert and it's still a win-win.

Ryan:

Absolutely. So, I mean, we had this experience where this guy joined my coaching program, no experience in landscape lighting. And he gets his first opportunity where he's out there. He's setting up a demo and it was, he was on one of our coaching calls and he just sounded really frustrated. And he's like, yeah, I was out there with the house manager and all this stuff. And I was like, house manager, usually when they say house manager, it's not a million dollar house, you know? And so I called him after, I was like, what's going on, man? He's like, oh yeah, I got this job and everything. It turns out it's a $12 million house. And I said, would you be open to partnering with someone on this? And this is what happened: so I partnered him with another member of our program. He flew up there, showed him how to do the presentation, closed the deal, got the check, flew back up with his team, did the install. So he basically got paid to learn how to sell. In person, learn how to do the install, learn how to do all this stuff, and now if he wants, he could continue working with that person or he could go: you know what, that's not as hard as I thought. Maybe I should do this. So I have clients all over the country willing to do that, knowing that they might just be training you to start your division. That's okay, you really won't know until you do a couple or three installs if it's really something that's a good fit for you. So there's definitely an opportunity to partner with people. And when I had my lighting business, we would call on people and we'd call an integrator and say, hey, what do you guys do when people ask about lighting? And sometimes they'd say, well, we throw out a few lights when they do. And it's like, well, is that really adding value to that customer? Like, why don't you do more? Well, we're just too busy. Exactly. If you're too busy, then let us come in and be the hero and we can actually give you a referral commission so you can still profit from the job but over-deliver on the experience for your clients. So that's where I'm at now. I feel like there's a lot of opportunity for these integrators to either do it themselves and bolt it on to their existing business, and we can help with that, or if they're like, I don't know if I'm ready for that, at least partner with someone on your first couple installs and see and go through that experience if it's something that you want to do.

Ron:

No, that's brilliant. Ryan, thank you for joining me here on show #261. And it was a pleasure, you know, getting to know you over the last six months and certainly doing the lighting panel last week at Lightapalooza. And I know you're a very busy man and you're running a fast growing organization. So I really appreciate you carving out some time to share with my audience and myself a lot of your wisdom regarding landscape lighting and the lessons you've learned along the way. So thank you for joining me, and for those folks that want to get in touch with you directly, where are you going to send them?

Ryan:

Well, yeah, I mean, we shared a couple of the links, but if you want to get in touch with me directly, Facebook is probably the best spot, so just look me up on... I don't even know what my thing is on Facebook, but Ryan Lee.

Ron:

All right, well, so we're gonna get that thing from you and we'll drop that into the show notes, and we'll drop that onto the show page for sure. Do you want to give an email or a phone number any other direct handles? Are you on LinkedIn, are you on Twitter, are you on any other platforms?

Ryan:

Yeah, I’m on all the other ones. So Facebook, it's Ryan Lee, but Instagram, LinkedIn, I think those are all Landscape Lighting Secrets. It might be Ryan Lee as well, so I should know all that more.

Ron:

You're the marketing guy. You're supposed to know all these things off the top of your head.

Ryan:

I just looked it up. So Facebook.com slash Ryan Lee Bottoms. I didn't even know that until just now.

Ron:

Well, there you go. And knowing is half the battle. Well, folks tuned in or that are listening, we'll drop all those handles onto the show page and in the comments. So you'll have them promptly. And Ryan, it was a lot of fun having you on the show, man.

Ryan:

That was great. I really appreciate you having me. I feel like I talk too much about my story. I want to come back on so we can just give tons of value on how to grow the business and help them with that. So hopefully it was a good show for you guys.

Ron:

I think in those stories, there's tremendous nuggets of value and gold that get deposited as people learn about the decisions you've made and why you made them and the lessons learned.

Ryan:

That's good.

Ron:

I would say don't undersell the value of a good story. Ryan, good to see you, buddy. Thank you, sir.

Ryan:

See you later.

Ron:

All right, folks, there you have it. That was show #261, Ryan Lee, Landscape Lighting Secrets. Definitely check him out. Follow his podcast if you want to learn more about the landscape lighting business. I've been listening to his show since September when I was introduced to Ryan. And he is regularly bringing on success stories and different business owners, similar to this show, Automation Unplugged, but they're all from the outdoor and landscape lighting world. And, you know, it's not just the installers. There's distributors and reps and consultants and designers and kind of the whole mix from that ecosystem. So there's a lot of wisdom he is regularly discussing and extracting from those guests. And like he said, they're sharing it all freely and openly on his show. So he's a good guy. I hope you all enjoyed this show. I've got some great guests lined up. I do have a lot of travel coming up here personally in the coming weeks. So we're going to take a little hiatus for a few weeks, two or three weeks. And then we've got a stacked line card of guests for April on. So just an FYI, if you're tuned in or listening for more content. So on that note, I'm going to sign off. I'm going to put up my regular request. You are, if you're watching this right now or on replay, you're seeing the video. But we do put this out in audio only. You'll find it under Automation Unplugged. And on any of the platforms, if you'd be willing to give that a review, give it, you know, what do you like? What do you take value in from these interviews? And give us a like or a share. It's always appreciated. So on that note, I'm going to sign off and I will see you all next time. Thanks everybody.

Ron Callis is the CEO of One Firefly, LLC, a digital marketing agency based out of South Florida and creator of Automation Unplugged. Founded in 2007, One Firefly has quickly became the leading marketing firm specializing in the integrated technology and security space. The One Firefly team work hard to create innovative solutions to help Integrators boost their online presence, such as the elite website solution, Mercury Pro.

Resources and links from the interview:

• Landscape Lighting Secrets LinkedIn Page
• Ryan Lee LinkedIn Page
• Landscape Lighting Secrets Webpage
• Landscape Lighting Secrets YouTube Channel