This week's episode of Automation Unplugged features our host Ron Callis interviewing Eddie Shapiro. Recorded live on Wednesday, November 22nd at 12:30 pm EST.

About Eddie Shapiro

Eddie has been in the AV and low voltage channel for over thirty years, and volunteering with CEDIA for more than a decade. He served on the CEDIA Board of Directors from 2020 through 2023, and continues to serve on CEDIA committees.

He started his career in security before founding his own integration firm: SmartTouchUSA. Throughout his career, Eddie has been involved in all aspects of the AV business, including installation, system design, programming, marketing, sales, and executive leadership.

Interview Recap

• Eddie’s takeaways from his experience serving on the CEDIA Board of Directors for the past three years
• His impressions and takeaways from the CEDIA AI Symposium
• Eddie shares valuable insights from a recent interaction with an architect
• His predictions for the luxury residential construction industry in 2024

SEE ALSO: Home Automation Podcast Episode #253 An Industry Q&A with Chris Oram

Transcript

Ron:

Hello, hello. Ron Callis here with another episode of Automation Unplugged. Today is Wednesday, November 22nd. It is just a little bit after 12:30 p.m. So this is our normal day, our normal time. And we are here for show number 254. And this is a special week because this is Thanksgiving week for our listeners here in the USA. This is one of the bigger holiday weeks of the year. I know a lot of my team at One Firefly is actually on PTO. Not everybody, don't worry. Our doors are still open, but a lot of our team is out on PTO. This is maybe the second big week of the year for vacations, maybe outside of the Christmas holiday week. But hey, we're here putting on another show for all of you. And we're excited to be here. So let's go ahead and get our guest introduced. We're here with Eddie Shapiro. He's the founder and CEO of SmartTouchUSA. They are an AV and low voltage specialist. He's based there in the Maryland and DC market. We'll let him tell us more about that. And let's go ahead and bring Eddie in. And then we'll also talk about when he was last on the show because he's actually a returning guest. So let's go ahead and bring in Eddie. Eddie, how are you, sir?

Eddie:

Good, Ron. How are you?

Ron:

I am good. Eddie, you were last on Automation Unplugged back on show 118 in May of 2020. Does that feel like a million years ago?

Eddie:

Yes.

Ron:

What has transpired since May of 2020 to the present?

Eddie:

Well, it was a long time ago and it's great to be back and things have changed. COVID's still here, but COVID's different now. So it seems like we never stopped working, so that's good. You know, so the market and business has changed a little bit because of COVID, but not much.

Ron:

Awesome. For those that are not familiar, Eddie, maybe tell us just a little bit about the business, where are you guys located, what markets do you work in, and kind of give us some of those details?

Eddie:

Sure. So we're in the DMV, as they like to call it. So Maryland, D.C., and Virginia. So we support those markets. That's our core. And then obviously, if we go or need to go elsewhere, we do. But most of our businesses is in Washington and Virginia.

Ron:

Got it. Mostly resi work, correct? Or do you do some commercial?

Eddie:

Very little commercial by special request, I would say. The rest of our work is high-end luxury residential. Lutron, predominantly on the lighting, Ketra, motorized shades, drapery tracks. You know, the focus is on lighting and everything about lighting.

Ron:

Okay. I was on, I was in a meeting with a prospect at One Firefly yesterday, she was from the Northeast. And she described that 2020, 2021, 2022 were actually really tough years for her business. And I think that on the residential side of CI, the COVID years, not always, but often were pretty good. How were they to your business? Did you, you know, if you just compare it pre-COVID and, you know, call it really a two and a half, three year period, it's hard to believe that's now behind us. But that period, what was that like for your business? Were you flat or did you go up or did you go down?

Eddie:

So I think during COVID, things were actually, they maintained themselves. I mean, things were good. I would say, interestingly, '22 was a little bit of an off, odd year, and that may have been more of demand sort of just kind of peaking and then dropping a little bit. The biggest challenge for us was supply chain, which I would say that everybody I know will tell you that. So getting product was harder than getting people's interest in that product.

Ron:

Where are we at today? This is November 2023. What are the remaining, if any, supply chain issues that you're aware of?

Eddie:

Well, you know, now if somebody says it's, you know, ten weeks, eight weeks, sixteen weeks, we're okay with it. I mean, it used to be, you know, you'd order on a Monday and the product would show up on Thursday. There's less of that now, but I don't think that's a problem. I think a little bit more planning. Most of our work is new construction. So we're not doing any renovation work. We're not doing any existing homes where they want to add, you know, a room full of X. And so we don't need product immediately. And plus, we have a lot of product. So, you know, we're not really seeing a supply chain issue anymore. And some of the product we used from companies like Crestron, which used to take fourteen months, are now maybe taking a month. And that number's gonna even get lower.

Ron:

So I've heard rumors, like early 2024 for Crestron in particular, is theoretically going to get eliminated or the supply chain. I don't know if that's true, but I've heard rumors of such.

Eddie:

Everything they've told us from the moment we saw them at CEDIA Expo in Denver in September till now points to them improving drastically. And I could see that change. You know, for us, Lutron has been our primary vendor and they've over-delivered and under-promised. I know I said that backwards.

Ron:

That bodes really well for Lutron if that's what has been occurring.

Eddie:

Well, that's true for us.

Ron:

But you're the Eddie Shapiro. Are you getting special treatment or is this everybody in the country?

Eddie:

No. By being a member of Cinergy, which we can talk about later, I am humbled by the kinds of companies, the quality of companies, and the large size of some of the companies. We're just a regular old Joe there when we call up Lutron and need product. And they have consistently said, for example, you know you'll have your shades the third week of December. And you know the last week of November, they show up. So that's been a consistent theme with them for a while. Do they have some issues? Sure, they had a big Ketra issue for a while, but they really pivoted hard to figure out, you know, for example, taking a D3 fixture and breaking it down to a point where you could get the housings now and the electronics, which is really what they were struggling with, you could have later, and that worked out. So they didn't panic. They didn't say, "Hey, guys, you know order often and order every day, and eventually your product will show up" like other companies did. They really dug in, they got serious, and they helped their dealers. And that was really impressive.

Ron:

That makes sense. Eddie, I have a plethora of topics I'm hoping we can get through here in the next 50 minutes or so. So it's going to sound maybe a little random, but is it okay if I kind of just rapid fire some different things at you?

Eddie:

Go for it.

Ron:

You are just rolling off serving on the CEDIA board for the last three years. And there's a newly elected - here, I'll share on the screen for our folks that are watching. There's new CEDIA board members or some folks that are rolling onto that board. Mike Chorney of La Scala out of British Columbia. Ed Gilmore, they're out of New York of Gilmore's Sound Advice. And True Media's Amanda Wildman returns to serve on another term. It's a three-year term. Is that correct?

Eddie:

It was for us, but I think the terms are sort of back to two. I could be wrong about that. But I was a COVID board member.

Ron:

You were a COVID board member. Okay.

Eddie:

So my first year was like Hollywood squares. All of our meetings were in Zoom. So four-hour Zoom calls to go over strategy for CEDIA in the industry. So that was a little tough. But during that period, I think they shifted us to three years or some of us to three years to sort of catch everybody up in the right sync.

Ron:

That makes sense.

Eddie:

I was there for three years. I'm still there till the end of this year.

Ron:

What were some of your takeaways? You got to see the industry. You've been in the industry for a long time, you know, decades, right?

Eddie:

Right.

Ron:

And you now got to see it from the association standpoint of trying to move the needle or improve the industry as a whole for everyone, your competitors, your friends, your folks globally that are in this CI industry. What was that like? And maybe what were some of the highlights? What were some of the things that just are takeaways that you'll take with you?

Eddie:

So first, I want to say that I think having Ed Gilmore and Mike join the board is great for the association and for all of us, both really good thought leaders and smart people. And I'm happy for one Ed to step off and another Ed to step in. And so that'll be good. And I look forward to seeing what they do. For me, it was probably one of the best experiences I've had in my years in the industry. I've been on other boards and sometimes you don't want to know how the soup is made.

Ron:

Yep, yep.

Eddie:

In this case, that was fine. Everybody I know at the board, I became good friends with. It's been really great. Rob Sutherland was the chair when I started. David Weinstein is the chair now and will roll off of that position in January. Both of them are great guys. David ran a phenomenal board the last two years. We were also very lucky to have Daryl Friedman join the board, not the board, but CEDIA as our CEO. That was a really important pivotal moment because CEDIA needed an adult in the room, if you will, in terms of daily management. And although the co-CEOs were doing a great job, it really wasn't what their training was about. So having a CEO come in that really understood associations and members and how to work with members was really pivotal. So Daryl's doing a great job. The board is very different than boards I've heard about in the past. Early on, the board was actually running the association, meaning managing staff. Today, the board really just focuses on strategy. So we help Daryl talk about strategy and mold strategy for the coming year. We have KPIs. We talk about budgets. I am on the finance committee. I'll actually remain on the finance committee after I roll off and be involved in a number of ways. But I would tell you that it's one of the best experiences I've had. I've learned a lot. I think it makes you more professional if you have a professional board, which we did, very respectful, very engaging, a lot of great ideas. It also helped me understand the industry better. You know, not everybody does HomeWorks QS and motorized shades and does lighting design and sells fixtures and gets into the best speakers in the world like a guy like Paul Bochner does and you know does amazing systems like Nick does at Elevated. You know, not everybody is what we all do, or knows what the people I know and I talk to often do. There are a lot of guys where there's two guys, a truck. They're doing Sonos, which is a great product. They're doing Eero. They're doing Ring doorbell systems. And they're fine. They're happy and they're doing good work. And in some cases, their margins may be better.

Ron:

They might have businesses making more money that are worth more if they sell it one day than the business doing the fancy stuff.

Eddie:

Right, right. So there are those out there doing projects, all of them above six figures. And then there are those out there that are doing $5,000 to $20,000 projects, you know, a couple times a week. And there isn't any one right approach. And once you're on the board, you understand that you're speaking to a broader audience and you're learning about a broader audience. And I think it's important that everybody understands that this is just not an industry where you have to be an HTSA member, no offense, to be someone in the industry, right? So there are lots of great people doing great work at all levels of our vertical.

Ron:

No, I completely agree. Well, I want to say thank you from, I'll speak on behalf of the industry. Thanks for the service.

Eddie:

Thank you.

Ron:

And the hard work and the dedication of time away from friends and family and your day job, which is running the business, to volunteer and help push the industry forward. It takes people like you and everyone that has served on the board in the past and is serving today to ultimately focus on that bigger vision of how to keep our industry viable and thriving. So it takes work and it takes a village. So that's fantastic. What are you going to do with all your free time now? I mean, now, are you going to just check out and go to the beach most days? Or what are you going to do?

Eddie:

No, I don't think so. Well, like I said, I'm still going to be involved in CEDIA. I'm not really going anywhere. I'm just not involved in the same aspects of the association at this time. But I'm really taking a more focused and relaxed approach. And it's kind of like two different things at the same time. Being focused and being relaxed sound like they're different, but if you relax more, you can focus better. And so I'm really getting more focused on sales, more on understanding what the experience is for an architect to work with a homeowner and to balance that homeowner and the technology professional at the same time. I'm really trying to understand the consumer more and what they're thinking. And I know what they're thinking. They're thinking they don't want to know about tech.

Ron:

They don't want to know about the black boxes, do they?

Eddie:

They don't want to know about the black boxes. They don't want to see proposals that have 20,000 line items, including lacing bars and screws, which is pretty fascinating when you see that. They really want to know that you know how are you going to help them get into their home with great products that are simple, work well.

Ron:

And don't break.

Eddie:

Don't break.

Ron:

Then you got to deliver the bad news that they do break.

Eddie:

Right. Well, you touched on something really important here. I used to meet with clients and they'd say, "Well, John over there at ABC AV said that his stuff never breaks. And you're telling me the opposite." And it's like, no, it's going to break.

Ron:

It's going to break. I promise you, it will break. It's not if, it's only when.

Eddie:

Right. So we're very focused on making sure they understand that we're there. We're there 24/7. We're going to take good care of them. And you know we're going to watch little Johnny go to kindergarten, and we're still going to be there when Johnny goes to college. And that we're there to take care of your system and your needs for as long as you live in your home.

Ron:

I have a story, a personal story about my house. This happened this past weekend. And I bet, Eddie, when I describe this, you're going to tell me you totally relate. So I and many listeners might feel the same. So I sat down on my sofa. It was on Sunday and I went to turn the TV on and, oh, look at the puppy. What's the puppy's name?

Eddie:

Molly.

Ron:

This is Molly. Hey, Molly. I went to turn the TV on and I've got a Samsung Frame and I've got a 75 inch Samsung Frame and I've got a Leon credenza and all the speakers in the electronics are inside of the credenza and I go to turn it on and it's dead, like dead, dead, dead. And I'm like, I was watching TV with my family the night before. Like this is the strangest thing in the world. And it's dead. And I'm like, but you know, I've got a little bit of troubleshooting skills, so I didn't have to call anybody. And I start walking around and I start flipping a few light switches and I realize my light switches on my patio are dead. And so then I go to my garage and I go to flip a breaker and it's a GFCI breaker and it won't reset, won't reset, won't reset. And now I'm just sitting here pondering, what in the world would cause a short circuit in this circuit? Anyway, long story short, I go outside and on the end of my patio, I have a, I don't even know what you call it, but I have like the thing, like an extra roof put on outside over my patio. And on the end of that is a security light. And I look up and the security light is full of water.

Eddie:

Ooh.

Ron:

Like loaded with water. Like all the light bubbles all the way up to the top, loaded with water. Long story short, clearly the electrician that had put that in had made a mistake in that short circuit affected my ability to watch my TV. And I could imagine, to bring it back to you, that there could be situations that happen where you get a phone call and you get yelled at because your tech isn't working. And the thing that has caused it to not work has literally nothing to do with you. But yet there's an obligation for you to go and solve their problem. Are you feeling me or am I out there in outer space?

Eddie:

Every technology professional is feeling you. But you proved my point. It will break.

Ron:

It will break. Something will break. It may not be your fault, but if it's connected to the tech, the music or the TVs or the stuff, the lighting that that customer wants to experience.

Eddie:

And it's always when you want to watch TV with your family. Or even better, it's when you're at a CEDIA board meeting in Indiana and your technology breaks. That's even better.

Ron:

And then, yeah, what do you do? What do you do?

Eddie:

You fix it remotely.

Ron:

Yeah, there you go. You log in remote. I'm going to switch topics here. In September, you attended the AI Symposium. And that was, I hear the puppy there. Does she need to go outside or what does she want? She wants Daddy to pick her up.

Eddie:

She wants treats. So Daddy's just gonna hold her.

Ron:

Do the interview with the puppy. AI Symposium happened. Tom Doherty put that on. I had fun collaborating with him on some of the content. And I remember you specifically, Eddie, came up to Tom and I and Isar, you know, one of the speakers, and you just, you had some nice things that the event was eye-opening for you. So maybe if we could start there, just kind of what was eye-opening to you? What did you know going into that? And maybe what are some of the high-level takeaways from attending the event?

Eddie:

Well, first of all, both you and Isar and Alex really knew your topics, which was fantastic. Hold on for one second.

Ron:

That's all right. That's all right. We're only live. I think the dog is getting the boot.

Eddie:

The dog is getting the boot. Yes, my apologies and triplicate.

Ron:

That's okay. That's okay.

Eddie:

So what was interesting is all the different ways that AI is changing and how fast it's changing. Obviously, everybody or most of us know how to use ChatGPT and have. It works well. It's interesting. It's useful. And if you really know how to set it up, it's incredibly useful, which is what you and Isar were talking about. So that and all the different graphic AI models that you can log into are pretty cool. So it was just an eye opener of how much more is there than we really realize as people that aren't spending the time that you and Isar are spending learning about it, which is pretty, you know, it's just a remarkable time. And you know it's good. It's just really powerful. I've written documents using ChatGPT. I use Grammarly in my emails. And AI is right there. You highlight a paragraph, you click on the little magic wand and it rewrites your paragraph for you. I mean, you know who would have thought, right?

Ron:

Have you used any of the generative imagery tools out there like DALL-E or Midjourney or Adobe Firefly or any of those tools yet?

Eddie:

A little bit. And I have a whole list from you and from Isar of just really great sites. I have your notes. I just have not dug into it too deeply. I did a little bit with DALL-E and I think it's cool and there's more to come.

Ron:

What do you think about all the absolute utter chaos with OpenAI over the weekend?

Eddie:

Well, I've been following it closely. I've been following the implications to Microsoft.

Ron:

Maybe tell the audience what that is for those that may not be following it quite as closely or - as I'm going to be demeaning to myself - as nerd-ily as I am. I know I'm avidly watching Twitter or X and reading the minute-by-minute plays. But tell the audience what happened over on Friday of last week.

Eddie:

I mean, those who aren't riveted to every tech podcast on the planet.

Ron:

Yeah. I don't know how they're operating day to day, but apparently there are some people that are like that.

Eddie:

So OpenAI is both a nonprofit and a for-profit. It's sort of like UL. UL is a nonprofit, but has a for-profit arm. And Sam Altman, who - they likened it to when Steve Jobs was booted out of Apple - was booted out of OpenAI. Yeah, by the board. He and his co-founder, well his co-founder quit after he was booted out. Satya Nadella from Microsoft offered them both jobs, of course, because Microsoft is heavily intertwined with OpenAI for all things AI and Copilot and a number of products that Microsoft's working on. So Microsoft had a vested interest in making sure something was going to work here. So at one point, Sam accepted an offer over at Microsoft. And then I think everybody realized that the smartest, best approach would be for Sam to go back to OpenAI and keep that humming with almost 90 billion cap valuation. It made a lot of sense for them to keep that moving and keep it thriving. And so the 700-plus employees all threatened to quit if Sam didn't come back, which says a lot for your CEO. And so as of a little while ago today, Sam is back. And I imagine some of the board that tried to oust him is now ousted.

Ron:

Ousted.

Eddie:

Yes. So it's been a chaotic, like, you know, what, five, six days?

Ron:

It's been a chaotic five or six days. I'm not gonna lie. It happened last Friday, late in the day. Well, what's interesting, and I covered a little bit of this at the symposium, and maybe you're even acknowledging this in that post symposium, you have a lot of notes and a lot of direction on things to check out, but then life happens, right? And you've got stuff to do and it's hard to jump into everything and learn everything. And there literally are hundreds and hundreds of tools out there to, at this point, probably thousands of tools to play with or investigate. And it's just, I'm going to say all but impossible. But it does point out something that's interesting in that, you know, I've personally chosen to spend a lot of my time really trying to get to understand ChatGPT. And even that platform is evolving so quickly. They had their dev day, what, 10 days ago or so, and all these new capabilities rolled out. And I have personally, mindfully chosen not to go too deep with some of the other platforms. And Anthropic is a good example. And you know Google has their thing and Microsoft has their thing. And there's a number of different platforms. There's the Pi platform. And I've gone in with ChatGPT from OpenAI, and it looked possible as recent as yesterday that that entire company was going to implode. And so it just shows you how volatile these things are, how dynamic this space is going to be as this, it's like a Cambrian explosion. I think I've used that in my presentations in terms of new ideas and technologies. And there's going to be things that are the biggest things in the world, and we don't even know about them yet. And there's going to be things today that are market leaders in tech, and they might fall to the side if they don't move fast enough on these things. It's interesting.

Eddie:

Yeah, it's funny that you mentioned Anthropic because earlier in the week, OpenAI wanted to merge with Anthropic, which is a bunch of guys who left OpenAI. So you know here's a company that was on the top of the world now trying to merge with someone dramatically smaller than they are. But you're right, it's sort of, you can't get too deep into all of them unless you just have mountains of time. It's like trying to be an expert at Crestron Simple and then also trying to understand how to program Control4 and Savant and Lutron. And you're either an expert in one or two of them or you're not. And so I think staying in one platform that you think is going to be dominant is the way to go. And I think it could be OpenAI or maybe you're better off, not you, but overall, people better off with Microsoft because they're taking the best of everybody's products and kind of melding them into things that make sense. Teams is getting Loop. Copilot is everywhere. There's just a lot of things that you can count on. But again, it depends on just how geeky and nerdy you are and what your job role is, you know?

Ron:

Well, I mean, I remember it was maybe at this point about five years ago where I made the major life decision to move to Apple devices, specifically an Apple computer. I've been a Microsoft PC person since birth, building PC from PC trade shows where I remember how excited I would be. I would go with my dad and we'd buy the motherboard and we'd buy the case and we'd buy the 40 megabyte hard drive to put in the computer, right? So all from, you know, as young as I can remember, I was a PC, Microsoft guy. And then I switched to Apple and Apple has been interestingly silent on all of this buzz of the last 12, 14 months, like heard all, but not a peep. But you have to imagine they've got some big stuff and they just haven't talked about it. 'Cause your point that Microsoft has so much momentum, I completely agree. But how much of, and I run an agency, so how many people in the creative space are fully Apple shops? Are they going to miss out on this new great tech because they're not Microsoft? I don't know. Something doesn't jive there, right?

Eddie:

No, so funny, you're only about 40 and you remember 40 megabyte hard drives. That's pretty amazing.

Ron:

45 to be exact. 45. So do you remember Windows for Workgroups 3.11? I remember Windows 3. I mean, I remember we built computers and used DOS. I remember when I, as a kid would go to science fairs, and I'm trying to remember at this point, this would be elementary school or middle school. And the prize that I won was Lotus 1, 2, 3. I mean, this is the predecessor to Word and Excel. I mean, I'm going way back. All Microsoft all day long.

Eddie:

So back in 2000, I switched. That's when Mac OS X started was in 2000. So we're going on 24 years that I stopped building Microsoft towers, PCs, and went straight to the Mac. My first one was the sunflower with the monitor that would be on the stainless steel mount, and you could move it like that.

Ron:

Oh, wow.

Eddie:

And I still have that one.

Ron:

You could sell that for a couple dollars on eBay.

Eddie:

Maybe. But to your point, I mean, I am completely Apple-based. We have people that obviously use Dells and Lenovos for Lutron programming just because it's easier, even though you could use a Mac with parallels if you wanted to. But we're all using different machines, but we all have access to OpenAI and ChatGPT and DALL-E and Anthropic and any one of them. So they don't care what you're using. So I don't think anybody's missing out. But an even more important point is you never know what Apple's doing and what's behind those closed doors in the spaceship. And I think that you can count on them. They're spending billions of dollars probably monthly on AI. They're incredibly vested in this. There are some people that are saying on Wall Street that Microsoft will overtake Apple's current capitalization and leave them in the dust. And you won't remember that Apple is the most profitable and wealthiest company in the world in short order. I'm not so sure about that.

Ron:

I'm not buying it. I'm not buying it. Apple's too good.

Eddie:

I mean, I'm a fanboy. When Steve Jobs died, people were actually calling me to ask me if I was okay.

Ron:

It's not funny, but yeah.

Eddie:

I'm a fan.

Ron:

You're a fan. I'm a fan too. So I'm confident they're gonna cook up some stuff. All right, I'm gonna switch gears again. And at a high level, well, number one, 'cause you and I were actually just talking a week or two ago, you just had a flood at your showroom. What happened? I'm sure folks around the country that have show spaces are probably feeling your pain here. What did you go through?

Eddie:

Yeah, I was talking to my friend James from Home Play in the UK this morning about it. And he's like, "Dude, I'm so sorry." It was just, just hearing his reaction was funny because he's a great guy.

Ron:

Well, the British accent helps, you know, you throw a British accent in there and they always sound smarter and funnier. It's just, I don't know, maybe that's just me.

Eddie:

Some of my best friends are from the UK. They're great guys. So we're a Ketra certified showroom and we were pulling out some non-Ketra fixtures in our floating ceiling so that we could add more Ketra. We are taking out another brand of fixtures on some of the perimeter and putting in Finire addressable. And as we were putting the floating ceiling back together, we meaning the painters and the drywall guys, the drywall guy was sanding and he hit a sprinkler head. So 50 gallons per minute of water gushing into the experience center.

Ron:

From just one head though?

Eddie:

One sprinkler head. Yeah, thankfully just one sprinkler head. And of course, the sprinkler room is locked. It's hard to get to. No one can open it. Eventually, the fire department came and they were able to get the water to stop. So Jack on my team and Steve and Monica, they all rushed to figure out how to save the day. And so I think we dramatically reduced the water damage by having some really fast-thinking people who took the water, actually got it going out the front door somehow. So we were able to mitigate.

Ron:

Built a little causeway for the water, a little river.

Eddie:

I don't know how they did it. I wasn't there. And maybe that's why I'm a little bit calmer about it, because you know mostly it's just floor damage. All the furniture was out anyway because we were doing the ceiling and we had just redone the floor.

Ron:

Like how recently had you redone the floor?

Eddie:

The floor was sanded, stripped, and stained two weeks prior. So now the floor has to be replaced. And of course, all the ceiling drywall work has to be done again. And perhaps maybe one Ketra fixture needs to be replaced. But you take these things in stride. It's fine. We're going to survive. It's all good.

Ron:

Was there any lesson there for anyone tuned in that has a showroom? Anything to deal with managing subcontractors or insurances? Any sort of takeaways from that? Anything you would do differently?

Eddie:

Yeah, I would stain the floor afterwards.

Ron:

Just time the destructive event?

Eddie:

Well, I think you bring up a good point. So the drywall contractor has been really good. I mean, they actually jumped in immediately to help and clean up and do what they could to solve some problems. We did have a camera in the Experience Center, so the whole thing was recorded, so no one could really say, it wasn't me. So that probably was helpful, but I think they're good guys anyway. They would have helped. We didn't have their insurance information like all of our builders ask us for. So I would say before anybody starts working your space, ask them for proof of insurance. We're going to be fine with them. They're either going to take care of it privately or they're going to run it through their insurance company. So they are insured. But you know these things happen. It's not the end of the world. You know, the hard part of the story was that Lutron was coming by last week and, you know2, we just said, well, we'll just let him come anyway. I mean, whatever. But what I didn't know is that Tony, who's our rep from our repping firm, was telling Jeff from Lutron how amazing the Experience Center was, and you're really going to love it. And this guy walks in and the ceiling's hanging down. There's plastic everywhere. There's dehumidifiers running.

Ron:

It's like a bomb blew up.

Eddie:

Yeah, so it looked kind of crazy. But you know we went into other parts of the facility, which were fine and had our meeting and everything was good.

Ron:

I'm glad to hear that. You remained particularly, or at least in your retelling of the story, you sound like you've remained particularly calm. What do you attest to being able to stay calm about this?

Eddie:

Being in this crazy industry for this long.

Ron:

You build that muscle.

Eddie:

Right. This is just not that big of a deal. I mean, it wasn't like we had tons of equipment that got destroyed. It wasn't like the furniture got destroyed. It's not like we have to move out. You know It's one large space that needs new floors, new ceilings, and probably a few other little touches and we'll be back up and running. So it was probably more traumatic for my team to deal with it. And it was. I mean, there's apparently a picture of Jack underneath the sprinkler trying to, you know, get it to stop somehow. So, I mean, it's easier for me probably to be a little bit more relaxed about it. I didn't actually live the trauma.

Ron:

I love it. Question. I was actually going to show your website. I saw that it just disappeared from my screen, so I'll pull it back up. But something you and I have been talking about recently, and I think there's maybe some interesting ideas and takeaways there for our audience. And it has to do with one of your strategies for growth. And this is not a new strategy, but it's certainly a strategy continuing into the new year, is maintaining and building new relationships with architects and really trying to understand them and deliver value to them. Building a relationship, not a transactional type of activity, but really delivering value to each other. And because that relationship could go for many years and be mutually rewarding for many, many years. Can you share the conversation? You said recently you were talking to an architect and kind of just trying to better understand his position of managing a client's expectations around project budget as it relates to all this technology stuff. And they don't always know what this stuff is and what it costs. And kind of you spent time trying to understand this from his position.

Eddie:

Yes. So a really great architect out of Baltimore, does some really good high-end residential work. And we've been working together for a while. He's really thoughtful, you know, really cares about his clients. And I think he really cares about our vertical. I think it's clear to everybody that most homes over 5,000 or 6,000 square feet and above probably should have lighting control, probably should have lighting designers that are professionals working on those homes, and probably should have better than average lighting fixtures. And so he knows that, and he knows that his clients are going to want some of it, but maybe not all of it, or maybe not any of it. And so it's probably the first time I really sat back. You know, usually my mind's moving and I'm trying to think about the next thing I'm going to say, or what's that important point, or maybe counter something that I don't agree with completely. I really let him talk and I really could tell that it's been a struggle for not only him, but most architects to really understand how to help their clients understand why they need any of this. And it was eye-opening to listen carefully to someone tell you what their struggles are and that they're struggling to help you and they want to help you. And so you know a lot of times we all see architects and like you said, we're expecting something. These days, I kind of feel like I'm kind of in the middle of helping architects figure out how to work with their clients, helping builders get more trades that do quality work. I'm giving a lot more of my time and expertise and asking for a whole lot less. And this was one of those times. And it was really interesting. I can't say that I've given him all the answers to help him navigate those waters, but I think if they at least have an understanding and a lot of architects are sharper than the other trade collaborators we're working with. They understand what we do. They understand the impact of what we do. They also, like the builder, understand that if we're not up to date and educated, we're going to screw up their projects. So they're looking very carefully at who they're using to be trade partners with. And so having the knowledge in lighting and motorized shades and every category you touch is critical.

Ron:

What was the scenario in which you found yourself entering into this conversation? Was this a sales call? Was this a lunch and learn? Was this, you know, at a Lutron event? Like, what was the, how did you enter into the conversation? Do you recall?

Eddie:

So we're working on a project with him right now. We worked on one with him last year. We worked actually on two of them with him last year. And it was just time to get together and probably pick up the conversation where we left off on mostly lighting design and how we can help with that. And the conversation just sort of navigated into, you know, he's working on projects and different clients at different ages understand and want different things. And just his journey on trying to get them to understand, you know, if your home is 10,000 square feet, why you probably want some lighting control. I saw that.

Ron:

Yeah, sorry. I clicked prematurely. Keep going.

Eddie:

So it was just a really good conversation. You know, a lot of times, as a technology professional, you find yourself sort of pushing back and going, "Yeah, you make a good point, but." And there was none of that, I don't think, or very little of that. There was mostly listening, discovering, and really getting a sense of what he's trying to do. Because he wants his clients to have lighting control and lighting design and better fixtures and all that. And I think he's struggling to put those numbers in front of clients because they're not easy numbers sometimes.

Ron:

At what point in his or her process, the architect's process, would they be giving budgets for lighting fixtures, lighting control? It's pretty early in the overall project budgeting process, right?

Eddie:

Well, it's interesting. I'm working on a potential project in Virginia, and the spec sheet and conversational notes talk about a budget of $200,000 for AV. You know, I'm used to seeing builders come back and say, you know, our budget for AV is $20,000. And we don't need to really talk about that too much and why that doesn't work. But having an architect understand that lighting control and other components of what we do in our vertical are going to take that much for the type of project this was, was very refreshing. I think that's a good time right then and there, right in the beginning, to have a budget number in your documents. I think once you've discussed budgets with your client as an architect and you say, for example, you know we are not going to cross $9 million as an example. You know I'm not going to let that happen. This is your budget. And you've already left out that $100 to $300 or $800,000 for everything, all things related to our vertical, then you've already dug a hole, if you will, right? So there's got to be a way to figure that out. And I'm sure that there are a number of people listening that have a better approach or have a solution that maybe we're not talking about.

Ron:

If they do, please raise your hand. Drop me an email, drop a comment. You'll find these videos on LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube. Let us know. I'd love to hear. I'd love to have you on the show and talk about it. I'm curious, Eddie, if the architect has given out a budget that's, let's just say, maybe not through malice, but let's say low or wrong. And then ultimately the consumer, the customer meets the integrator and the integrator learns that the customer actually wants, you know call it $250,000 worth of tech. Does that ultimately reflect poorly on the architect that their initial project budget was low? Is that like harmful to the relationship with the architect in some way? And thus that needs to be managed. Maybe there's the opportunity for the CI company to better collaborate with architects on budgeting early. I'm just speculating. I haven't done it myself, so I'm just curious.

Eddie:

I would say that my number one goal is to protect my trade partners. So if my builder is at $20,000 and he should have been at 90 or 150, or the architect didn't put in a budget at all, and the client's not happy about that, I'm going to protect the builder and the architect every day, all day long, because you know they don't have the knowledge I have. So you work around it. If they want it, they want it. And the reality is often the technology budget maybe shouldn't include window treatments, because there's another line item for window treatments. So if you want motorized drape tracks and motorized shades, well, that goes into the next category. And so that probably isn't AV anyway. But we do it because we're good at it, right, as an industry. So you pivot. It's a fine dance. So it's a very difficult position for a really good architect who cares both about you as a technology professional and their client to kind of be in the middle and walk that line and figure out how to bring everybody together. So I really empathize with that. And I hadn't thought about it that much that way before. The builder is kind of in a different place. And by the time the builder has been selected and he's doing the project, and usually he's selected because the architect thinks he's the best fit for that client with that style house that requires that set of expertise. He's got other things to worry about now. Now he may want to sell the lighting package himself, or he has a retaining wall that's going to be $90,000 that he didn't expect before. Or now we're into the landscape company that wants a million two to do the property. So it gets complex once it gets out that far out of the gate. And so it's harder, much harder.

Ron:

What are you, this is where I'm asking you to grab your crystal ball. You look into 2024, what are you seeing in terms of new home starts, maybe at that luxury level, the typical type of client you're serving? What's your prediction right now?

Eddie:

It's hard to say. I mean, we all know that at the luxury level of, you know, a Jeff Bezos, if you will.

Ron:

He's building a home down here in Miami, I heard. I just heard that in the news.

Eddie:

Right, he bought a home next to another home. He owns that other home too, and he's going to be doing some work. But you know when you're at that level of income, nothing that's happening in our economy is going to impact you. But I would say that there is still some impact to luxury buyers that are building a home that's between, let's call it $9 and $20 million. They're still cutting back on something maybe. There's still some value requirements that weren't there maybe in the early 2000s where people were spending money and didn't really pay attention to what they were getting, I find, and I'm glad that homeowners are paying attention and they're weighing things and saying, well, does that have value for me? Yes, I can afford that. But should I buy it? Does it make sense? You know, so there is a little bit of scaling back. I've heard of projects that have been delayed because interest rates are too high, regardless, because you may have the money, but you may also be borrowing some money. So some of these people don't want to borrow money at 6% and 7% or whatever the rate is at the moment. So there is going to be impact. The middle market and the lower end markets are going to get hit first. That's always the way it works. If you're LVMH and you're Louis Vuitton, you know you're getting hit last, but you're going to get hit eventually if the market downturns. We're going to have less than a soft landing, meaning we're probably not going to have much of a recession at all. I'm not Larry Summers, but everything points out.

Ron:

Sounds like a prediction. I'm going to replay that little clip at some point next year when we're in that less than a soft landing. You heard it here first on Automation Unplugged.

Eddie:

Right. Well, I think that's the way things are pointing. I don't know. It's an election year. It could be a little crazy. Let's not talk politics though.

Ron:

Well, it's shameful that we can't, but yeah, let's not.

Eddie:

Well, I'm open to talk to anybody about politics because I don't get crazy about it. And I'm open to hear what everybody likes, but the world is a little bit crazier about politics. So it's a tougher topic, yes.

Ron:

So do you predict for yourself, your business, you don't need to state numbers, but do you predict you'll be flat next year, year over year, or you'll be up or you'll be down?

Eddie:

You know, it's interesting. You know, you can have one project that turns that all upside down.

Ron:

One project could double your business.

Eddie:

Right. You just don't know. I think we'll probably be a little bit better than this year. You know, I wouldn't say we're going to be jumping out crazily, you know, into higher numbers that are, you know, 15% higher than this year. I don't see that, but I think we'll be above this year.

Ron:

Okay. Well, I did tease it just a minute ago when I accidentally clicked, so I'm going to click it now. This will be our last topic here. And what I'm sharing is my screen, and I'm sharing the Lightapalooza 2024 website, which is going to be in Phoenix at the Renaissance, and it's going to be February 26th to 29th. And you can see some of our friends in this picture here. And this is you know the big trade show, newer trade show. I think this will be its third occurrence.

Eddie:

Yes.

Ron:

And if we come over here to education, see some nice and smiling people here. Might even see. Look at that. Yours truly.

Eddie:

Look at that.

Ron:

Oh my gosh. I even put a suit on for that picture.

Eddie:

Yeah, that's your usual look these days. And I'm going to say it. I said it to you. I've already said it to Josh on your staff. I was really blown away by your presentation. You really were incredibly well-prepared, and it was really great to listen to you and Isar and Alex. So thank you for that. Lightapalooza is really Tom Doherty's brainchild. He did a great job with it last year. Tom has really done a lot of really great things for all of the industry lately, even though he's focused most of the time on HTSA. He's been very generous to open this up to the entire industry. I went last year. I thought it was excellent. It looks like this year is going to be even more deep with education. And actually, I saw some manufacturers there that weren't there last year when you were scrolling the bar.

Ron:

The show floor, yeah, I'll go here. Apparently it's, I was talking to Tom last week. Apparently it's, it's booming. There's going to be a lot of, I mean, look at this. Lutron is bringing their CEDIA booth.

Eddie:

That's going to be great.

Ron:

DMF, bringing in a big booth. I mean, Prolux, Savant, AiSPiRE.

Eddie:

Yeah. I saw Modular in there, which is great. And Black Nova's coming. And it looks like Rosewater's going to be there.

Ron:

Yeah, because their new thing this year is, I don't know if it's new, I don't want to overstate, but eighth component this year is not just lighting fixtures and design and control, but also power. So the power and the battery backup type surge and battery backup type vendors will be here. So you have, what is it? Rosewater, Apex, and SurgeX.

Eddie:

So Kimmy and Ryan are going to be there, which is great. I see Apure is going to be there, which is great. Yeah, it looks like it's going to be a great show.

Ron:

So I guess from your position, and I guess that's the takeaway I wanted, or at least your input, why should folks listening consider attending that? Why go to that when they could just maybe hear an update from their rep?

Eddie:

Well, some of us have better reps than others. I'm fortunate to have one of the best, which is Hill Residential with Rogers, Adam, and Tony. They're absolutely amazing. And let's not forget Rob, of course.

Ron:

Yep.

Eddie:

And Steph. And Steph, don't forget Steph.

Ron:

Don't forget, Steph.

Eddie:

And so they're good at educating you on things you may have missed. But you know everything's about relationships. I have some really good friends at Lutron and the other vendors. And I think that seeing them often not only educates you, but just makes you at the top of your game because they share so much with you. You had a great presentation there last year. Alex at Synergy, he was fantastic last year. Tom Doherty's daughter was on stage for an event that was really good. Education's great. Peter Romanelli was not there live, but via Zoom last year. He's probably one of the best lighting designers I know and the clearest one for the end user to understand. And so just being able to be in a room with those guys for an hour or two and learn from them is great. And then I don't know if I saw Arcluce on that showroom booth listing, but seeing them last year, great products. There are a lot of really great products we saw last year. Lucifer was there and I'm sure it'll be there again. So seeing and touching product cannot be replaced with a Zoom call or an in-person quick meeting with your rep. And I think lighting continues to be the most important category in our channel. Period.

Ron:

Full stop. Great place to end the show. Eddie, for those that are tuned in and want to get in touch with you directly, they want to talk to you, they want to check out SmartTouch. Where would you send them?

Eddie:

They can email me at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. or check out our website or see us at Instagram. Same thing, SmartTouchUSA. So call, write, send a flare. Happy to help.

Ron:

Love it. Eddie, this was show 254, my friend. Thank you for, thank you for joining me. And it was a lot of fun. We covered a lot of ground on this one.

Eddie:

We did. Thanks, Ron. Appreciate it. Have a great Thanksgiving and I appreciate the invite.

Ron:

All right, buddy. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your team.

Eddie:

Say hi to Max for me.

Ron:

I will. He and I are going to be doing science all weekend. So it's going to be a weekend of science and aiding. It's going to be a blast.

Eddie:

Great. Thank you. Take care. Be well.

Ron:

You're welcome. All right, folks, there you have it. Show 254. Eddie is an industry veteran. I could take the conversation in any direction. And he's prepared to share his thoughts and ideas and opinions. And that's one of the many reasons I like that guy. He's always a blast to talk to and I learn a lot every time we speak. So on that note, I'm gonna sign off. I want all of you to have a wonderful and warm Thanksgiving. Enjoy your friends and your family. And don't forget to put your phones away. Detach. Focus on those that are right there in front of you. Be present. And I'm really speaking to myself when I say these things because friends and family and health, that is really what's most important. So I will see you all soon. We have more shows lined up through the end of the year. And if you have not done so, I'm gonna share the artwork. Don't forget, if you're watching this on video that we do put the show out as a podcast and the audio version, you just go to your favorite app for podcasts and you search up Automation Unplugged, you can subscribe. If you are so inclined, love you to leave a review that will boost the visibility of the show in those algorithms. And I'm gonna sign off for now and wish you all a happy Thanksgiving. I will see you soon.

SHOW NOTES:

Eddie has been in the AV and low voltage channel for over thirty years, and volunteering with CEDIA for more than a decade. He served on the CEDIA Board of Directors from 2020 through 2023, and continues to serve on CEDIA committees.

He started his career in security before founding his own integration firm: SmartTouchUSA. Throughout his career, Eddie has been involved in all aspects of the AV business, including installation, system design, programming, marketing, sales, and executive leadership.

Ron Callis is the CEO of One Firefly, LLC, a digital marketing agency based out of South Florida and creator of Automation Unplugged. Founded in 2007, One Firefly has quickly became the leading marketing firm specializing in the integrated technology and security space. The One Firefly team work hard to create innovative solutions to help Integrators boost their online presence, such as the elite website solution, Mercury Pro.

Resources and links from the interview:

• SmartTouch USA Webpage
• SmartTouch USA LinkedIn
• Eddie Shapiro LinkedIn Profile